Apostles for today, Yes or No? repost

This has been one of the most viewed post since I started back in November with this Blog. I thought it deserved to be posted again.

https://lbolm.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/apostles-for-today-yes-or-no/ 

Please feel free to come by and join in on the discussion or just visit!

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13 Comments

Filed under apologetics, Apostles, Bible, cessasionist, Charismatic, Christianity, church, evangelical, faith, God, Holy Spirit, Jesus, prophets, religion, theology

13 responses to “Apostles for today, Yes or No? repost

  1. IWanthetruth

    Here is a fine article on the issue of Apostles and prophets in the end times…

    http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue103.pdf

  2. lbolm

    Hi Tim,
    Good reading. I understand what they are getting at. I will have to pray it out and see what God would say to me about it.
    You have heard me use the term “True Apostles and True Prophets’. That is what separates me from most of these ” Movements” that exist today. If there are NO prophets today, as some say, then I would have a hard time being who God has called me to be. I don’t claim the “office” of prophet, but make myself available to Him for whatever He chooses. If I follow what this article says, there should be No apostles or prophets of God in existence today.
    I just don’t “buy that”!! Mostly in the prophet line!!
    God is not dead!! He is alive. His Holy Spirit dwells among men and was sent to mankind to show the will of God The Father in peoples lives. It is His Spirit that speaks to our inner being and helps us through conviction of sin, to come to the Father. His Spirit still speaks today. I have heard it and so have the millions who have come to The Father. Why is it then, that the same Holy Spirit that speaks to man to lead them to the Father, can’t speak to man about anything else that God wants to reveal to us.
    I believe that God still speaks to those who HE wants to today!! I am not talking about some of the TV personalities, etc. I am talking about whoever God chooses to use. It is His voice spoken through whom HE chooses.
    As far as the assertion that “elders and bishops” replaced “apostles” as this article claims, I would have to ask the same question then of them [ elders and bishops], “Where are the True elders and bishops”? The church is tossed as in a windy storm, for lack of TRUE leadership. The article says that “elders and bishops” would have met the criteria laid out by Paul and would in essence, do the work of the apostles, but under a different name. My contention with this is the same. The leadership of today’s church is lacking in sound doctrine and the authority to implement that to the Body of Christ. This would satisfy Ephesians 4, if the leadership of today, would be able to help the church to grow and mature in a sound way. That just “ain’t happening”.

    Love in Christ Jesus
    Jake

  3. IWanthetruth

    That is the difference between you, me and the writer. You and I are continuist, he is not. We believe that the gifts of the church ARE for today. But even with that I believe he has done an excellent commentary questioning this topic of Apostles for today. I understand what you say when you bring up the term True Apostles and Prophets of today. I have spoken at length with my friend the Phd of Greek and he has been very adamant that the greek in these areas have to do with the “sent one” but small apostles. We can call them whatever we want, bishops, superintendents, etc. but, and I agree, they must have a “sound” doctrinal stance. They ARE ones who have been sent out to be either overseers of a group of churches or even missionaries. But I just don’t see them having the same authority as the original 12 or however many there were at the time.

    See my interpretation of Eph 4 is that the word “some” is what is in question. I don’t think it is giving us any true distinction as to whether that meant some for those days only (the apostles that Christ appointed only are the “some”) or if that means through out the churches existence that there would be Apostles that have the same authority (notice Cap A). And as usual I have strong feelings about the “doctrine” of that position or calling when it comes out of a doctrine such as “Latter Rain/Manifested Sons of God” theology.

    Anyway, I thought you might find the commenatry interesting.

    Tim

  4. IWanthetruth

    “But I just don’t see them having the same authority as the original 12 or however many there were at the time.

    When I made or become false biblical teachings and yet tell us that they are not to be tested or questioned and frankly who aren’t humble enough to even come to a place in their heart to even accept correction if in error.

  5. IWanthetruth

    What happen to my sentence above??? It didn’t paste the complete thought.

    When I made this statement I meant ones who redefine or become false biblical teachings and yet tell us that they are not to be tested or questioned and frankly who aren’t humble enough to even come to a place in their heart to even accept correction if in error.

    Sorry

  6. lbolm

    Iwant wrote,”See my interpretation of Eph 4 is that the word “some” is what is in question. I don’t think it is giving us any true distinction as to whether that meant some for those days only (the apostles that Christ appointed only are the “some”) or if that means through out the churches existence that there would be Apostles that have the same authority (notice Cap A). And as usual I have strong feelings about the “doctrine” of that position or calling when it comes out of a doctrine such as “Latter Rain/Manifested Sons of God” theology.”

    The word “some” is used as a distinqueshing word, as in “pointing to this one or that one”, “these or those”. If it had only meant “some” as in those days alone, THEN , evangelist,pastor and teacher would be in question today, as well. We can both agree that isn’t the case.

    I really hate this whole issue of “titles”.

    Why can’t people just BE who they are called to be! We all are Children of the Most High God, if we have accepted Him and believed in Him. There is none, NO NOT ONE, who is any better than the other, for we have ALL sinned and fallen short of His Glory. It is through HIS grace alone, that we are able to share and are called to share The Good News!!

    And yes, Iwant, the article did give us things to ponder on and I appreciate your post always!!

    Your Brother in Christ,
    Jake

  7. IWanthetruth

    RIGHT ON!!!! “Why can’t people just BE who they are called to be! We all are Children of the Most High God, if we have accepted Him and believed in Him. There is none, NO NOT ONE, who is any better than the other, for we have ALL sinned and fallen short of His Glory. It is through HIS grace alone, that we are able to share and are called to share The Good News!!

  8. lbolm

    Iwant wrote,”When I made this statement I meant ones who redefine or become false biblical teachings and yet tell us that they are not to be tested or questioned and frankly who aren’t humble enough to even come to a place in their heart to even accept correction if in error.”

    Amen!!
    There has to be an accountability structure in place. There in lies the problem. Who is accountable to who?
    I can only answer for myself on judgement day, so my own salvation is between me and God.
    As a person called by God to minister, I am accountable to HIM first and foremost. Then I am accountable to those He has placed me under. I will be judged not only for myself as a child of God, but for my teachings of other people as well. It is a responsibilty that I don’t take lightly. I am “not all that and a bag of cookies” and when I make a mistake I am willing to admit it, repent and move on. That is what we all must do!

  9. IWanthetruth

    Just sent an e-mail to you on pvt e-mail……..

    Blessings this day
    IWant

  10. Ian Williams

    Mnyn years ago, Jesus challenged me with, “If the whole world went apostate tomorrow, would you still be My Body?” “Yes, Lord”, I replied – “Good” He said, “Thta is how it must be”.

    It is simple – we are the church, we are the Body – One faith, One baptism, One God and Lord of all, in all and through whom all things consist and have their being. Honestly, sometimes I think that “Christians” are so busy straining at gnats that they swallow the Word denying, faith defying camels of tradition.

    We are perhaps all of us a little too concerned with what others are or aren’t doing to be focused on our own calling, election and submission. If there are not apostles and prophets in the times since the Bible, then what have I been doing all these years? I had better stop prophesying, teaching, discipling, and all that stuff and get myself under a Pastor and join a denomination – shudder!

    Shalom, Ian.

  11. lbolm

    Hi Ian Williams,
    I am sorry for not being able to get back to you. I have been pretty busy at work and not a lot of time for blog.
    I have really enjoyed your post and THANK you for your views and appreciate your love for our Lord Jesus.
    Keep plugging away and may God grant you the desires of your heart in this New Year.

    Love in Christ Jesus,
    Jake

  12. lbolm

    Ian , did you click the link to the original post on this ?

    https://lbolm.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/apostles-for-today-yes-or-no/

  13. Ian Williams

    I did, and might I say whenever I read such carefully reasoned theology, it reminds me of Job’s statement, “How forcible are right words.” There is a way which seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death – it simply does not engender life and hope. On the other hand, I am very wary of certain prophetic types, as they seem to be the other side of the same paradigm, in that they can see in part by the gift which is in them and they imagine more than is their due – they think more highly of themselves than they ought and they become trapped in the vanity of their own minds.

    Some years back, I was involved in an extension or expression of the Toronto type manifestation which Jesus clearly led me into – and all the while as I wondered what planet these people were on, Jesus just kept saying, “Keep your eyes on ME!” until I had the most amazing sereis of encounters with Him and the beginnings of an outstanding revelation of the Spirit of Grace. Whenever I would get judgmental I would find myself reverting and losing my joy and having to repent and God would pick right up an keep teaching me – he was home-schooling me in the way of righteousness.

    The bottom line is that some years later, I have been so much more developed in faith, largely from seeing what was wrong in others and where that was in me – this is how God so often “does” us – He exposes us to those things which are secreted in us by showing us a mirror. If we make the mistake of judging, we will revert to the same, if we learn thereby we will grow in grace and mature in Love.

    To comprehend how this all functions, read Acts 20-21 and see how Paul went to Jerusalem to be captured even though he was warned repeatedly. I will write a thesis on this some day soon and send it for possible posting. The bottom line is that we have to be imprisoned to work through our issues – Romans 11:32.

    Ephesians 4 states plainly that the gifts are an ongoing continuance. When I first got really serious about the faith in the early 80’s, Jesus asked me if the whole world went apostate, would I still be His body? I said I would and He said, “Good, that is how it must be” and He showed me then that each believer has the DNA of God in the SEED which is CHRIST and that all are capable of being whatever God wants at any given time or place – He can raise children from the stones if He wants – so I guess there is even hope for Mick Jagger?

    Simply put, the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit – it is impossible. About 5 or 6 years ago, Jesus began to expose me to various people who purportedly spoke for Him, and I would read what they said but be vaguely troubled in spirit by it, even though they spoke with the force and conviction of seemingly “right words”, so I would simply commit to Him and He would later show me where the error was, thereby letting me become iincreasingly inoculated and sensitised to error. I made the mistake of taking some of these false prophets to task, and would get psycho/spiritual backlashes, but I have never been one to hide behind a pseudonym for fear of recriminations.

    Now as to Ephesians, it is an incredibly misunderstood book, and I would love at some stage to give a commentary on it as to how I have been given revelation of it, but then it is my belief and conviction that so much of the bible is misunderstood. To give the illustration God showed me, stand in front of the mirror and hold your Bible in front of you, opened out as if for another to see – now try and read it’s reflection. You have to have the mind of Christ, to know nothing save Christ Jesusa dn Him crucified. I offer a challenge to any and all, as this is the way God did me – be brave enough to go to Him and say, “Lord, do I really know you as you really are, or do I just think that I know you, and if I do not, will you please reveal youself to me as you really are?” I’ll give you a clue – HE IS LOVE!

    Anyway, quoting from the Victor Alexander Aramaic Translation – my personal favourite (www.v-a.com/bible/letters):

    1. I beg you thus, I who am bound to our Lord, that you proceed according to the calling by which you were called,
    2. In complete sympathy (gentleness of outlook), peacefulness and generosity (stretching) of spirit, and preach [the Kingdom] to each other in love,
    3. And you should endeavor to guard the Triune essence of the Spirit (Oneness of Spirit), dovetailed in peace,
    4. So you may be with one body and one spirit, as you are called by the one Hope of your Calling.
    5. For One is the Lord and one is the Faith and one is the Baptism,
    6. And One is God, Father of everyone and Supreme over all, and Omnipotent in everything and Omniscient in all of us.
    7. To each one of us, however, He gave us grace according to their measure in appreciating Christ.
    8. Because of that it is said [in Scriptures,]
    “He ascends to the highest,
    He furnishes a resting place
    and He grants rewards to humanity.”
    9. That He ascends, however, is what, except for also that He beforehand would descend to the lower depths of the earth.
    10. He who descends, was the One who ascended higher than all, so as all heaven should be in submission to Him.
    11. And it is He who grants that some should be apostles, prophets, preachers, sheppards and some to be teachers,
    12. To nurture the saints, to perform ministry, to build the body of Christ,
    13. Until we all become one in faith and knowledge of the Son of God, and [we become] one person according to the measure of Christ’s all encompassing stature.
    14. And that we should not be like the boys who are shaken and tossed asunder by every revolutionary spirit of human knowledge, those ideas that are designed to mislead through stupidity.
    15. Except [your ideas] should be confirmed by our love, so as that everything that belongs to us is nurtured through Christ who is our head,
    16. And from Him is everybody mustered and assembled, whoever He embodies, according to the measure of the endowment granted to every member for the discipline of his or her body, so as the entire structure is established in love.

    Aa-meen.

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