I know all the teaching that goes with the mind set of “we are all sinners”.
Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”
This is probably the most quoted verse that is used for that purpose. Another is ;
1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
There are a few problems that are overlooked just in the wording of these two verses. Both use the “past tense” “have sinned or have not sinned”, which doesn’t fit into the “present tense” of a person who has accepted Christ into their life. This is further backed up with “and his word is not in us”. For those of us who have accepted Christ, His Word in now in us. Let’s look further at what The Word says about those who have come to the saving Grace of God.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Romans 5:19
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
We are “new creatures” [ 2Cor.5:17] “made free from sin” [Romans6:18] and “made righteousness of God” [Romans 5:19 and 2 Cor. 5:21 ] through Him, Jesus Christ, “who knew no sin”. Christ completed role of the “perfect Lamb of God” on the Cross at Calvary has washed our sins away as “far as the East is from the West” [ Psalms 103].
Let me put it to you where even a child can learn it.
A doctor practices medicine and has a continuing role in that. That is what a doctor does!
A lawyer practices law and has a continuing role in that. That is what a lawyer does!
A sinner practices sin and has a continuing role in that. That is what a sinner does!
BUT, those who confess Christ Jesus with their mouth, repent of the evil sin nature, they are set free from the old and are to NOT “practice sin”. They are NOT sinners any longer, but Saved by the Grace of God and the Perfect Redemption of His Son Jesus upon that Cross.
Romans 6 : 1
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
As we reflect on the work of the Cross and the Perfect Lamb of God, during this season we celebrate not just the Cross, but the Resurrection as well, for without the Resurrection, our Faith would be in vain.
As Christ died and was Resurrected, so are we, who have partaken of His Grace. We are dead to the old man, and resurrected as a new man.
I find it easier, nowadays for me NOT to sin, then it is for me TO sin. Why? Because I have found out who I am. I am Not a “sinner” any more, and I have found out who I am, “saved by Grace”.
I know who I am, and Whose I am!
My question for you today is this, ” Is not what the Son of God did on the Cross enough for you ? How long will you slap Him in the face and send Him back to the Cross ?” [Hebrews 6:6]
Who are you ? “A Sinner” or are you ” Saved By Grace”?
Living Bread of Life Ministry 
Brother Ian’s post was originally on my first posting of this Post. Here it is as it appeared there. I had to delete that Post and re-post
Thanks for your understanding!
Jake
Comment by Ian Williams on March 21, 2008 12:13
Having our minds renewed to the essential Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ is central to the great struggle of faith – breaking free from the socio-religious conditioning of sin consciousness is the line upon line, precept upon precept, surgical excision from the disempowering of orthodoxy and tradition, and into the revelation of the kingdom.
It seems appropriate to address such issues at this time of the paganistic Easter supplanting of Passover. Paul warned with tears of the false gospel of works righteousness which would be brought in by wolves in sheep’s clothing and those seeking gain, prominence and a following (Acts 20). I think that it is an expression of the grace of God which keeps many from even seeing to just what extent this pervades modern Christendom, and they being under a strong delusion from the throne, do not see that much of what they call Christianity is an aberration to the Way of Truth.
I had a prophetic dream a few years back in which God told me that we did not need to appeal to people on the facts of their being sinners, but on the strength of their having been made righteousness in Him. We tend to overlook the Truth that we were all made righteousness at the Cross, but even more, that God had a Lamb slain from before the foundations of the world, and that the only thing that stops us seeing the magnificence and all encompassing grace of Almighty God is that we are often as small-minded, mealy mouthed men pleasers offering lip service who want to judge and condemn and see our enemies roast in hell. We like to talk about justice but it seems that it is more like “just us”.
It is small wonder that many either do not embrace the message or, having done so, they draw back, becoming in disillusioned with what should have supported, fed and led them into a saving knowledge of Christ Jesus and which would properly prepare them for what they would encounter. Most of religion does not properly teach or promote single minded devotion to Jesus, but rather a co-dependency which creates religion junkies who need their weekly fix of being justified by their works, and who, sadly, often look down on those not yet “illuminated”.
The wickedness and lovelessness which was warned of is a lot to do with those who have the knowledge of the gospel – I have great difficulty holding my peace in churches when I hear the Bible misapplied and people talking about sinners going to hell if they do not believe according to their doctrine – but I used to be like this so that makes me to understand how people can be so shortsighted and or have such a small and distorted view of God.
I like to challenge people by provoking them to ask Jesus just what hell is and who is really going there. Or try asking a Jew what they think of hell – they will just look at you quizzically and think that you are just another crazy Catholic, as there is no hell in their doctrine, just a place of correction for those who die without their conflicts with God and others having been resolved.
When Jesus said, “Where I am going, you cannot follow”, He meant it. He went to the lowest low, and then ascended to the highest high, so that He might fill all things with Himself. When Paul wrote that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR SINS TO THEM, and that He was imputing righteousness to them, while they were yet sinners, HE MEANT IT! The reason why so many people who should know better misconstrue the gospel and misunderstand the grace of God is that they still have a sin consciousness, they still judge good and evil, they still sit in judgment over their neighbours, they still hold others to account for what they have been forgiven of – and so they are cast into the prison of their own disobedience (Romans 11:32) until they have paid every penny of an unremittable debt – work that one out!
Jesus gave us a New Commandment, that we should love one another as He first loved us. This is not optional, desirable, or commendable even – it is our solemn duty to God by Christ. So, the next time you feel like calling someone a rag-head, or belittling or demeaning someone because they do not see things your way or they are not of your culture or persuasion, remember the Jesus who was nailed for the sake of our transgressions. There are going to be an awful lot of people in heaven who you did not imagine would be there – I know, I have been to see church in heaven – it is an awesome sight – billions upon billions of peoples – a vast sea as far as the eye can see – and I was hundreds of feet above them – I could see that they were in nations and groupings – I could not even begin to number them, they were as the sand on the shore and the stars in the skies! They all worshipped God as ONE! They all faced the same way – they all faced the Throne.
AS THE SAND ON THE SHORE, AND THE STARS IN THE SKYS, SO SHALL THEY SEED BE – AND HE SAITH NOT UNTO SEEDS, AS OF MANY, BUT SEED, AS OF ONE, WHICH IS CHRIST.
I sat once, typing away, and I sensed the presence of God – I looked at my hand and I felt the presence of God fill me and my arm – I saw that my hand was the hand of God – I saw a hammer in my hand and I began to raise it up – as if to strike a blow – I looked before me and there was Jesus – lying on a cross – His eyes so full of love, looking at me and saying you have to do what you have to do – I could not stop myself – it was not me but he will of God that put Him there and nailed Him to that tree. I have heard it said that it was our sin which put Him there, but his is not scriptural – it pleased God to put Him there FOR our sin – in our place. I don’t know if you have noticed, but you were not your idea – and He died for us because we were and are His idea – His image – His responsibility. Unto He who is able to present you spotless before the Father, Aa-meen.
“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
Present-tense. At what point, according to this verse can I say I have no sin. There is not one second I can say, “I have no sin.” Furthermore, it does not say, “If we say we do not sin.” It says, “have sin” There is sin within me. I am at war with that sin. But what is a person who has sin? A sinner. Paul says, “Christ came into the world to save sinners, of who I am the worst.” In present tense, Paul say I am the worst sinner. I think it is difficult to argue that in the context He is speaking past tense. If you do want to argue it is past tense, it still shows us that it is appropriate to speak in such a way, “Sinner saved by grace.”
I do think this is a very difficult idea, and these are just my thoughts. I would agree with you on those passages, they are past tense. But there is no getting around the present tense of other scriptures. Peace.
Well, I must say that i have a lot to think about after reading your post and the comment. In my soul I know this is right. But to have it stated in words so clearly is shocking. I think this is what I have been trying to say on my blog, in my own way, but you have done a much better job of it. I will continue to ponder your words, Thank you both.
TLT,
The main point in this is that we should no longer continue in our sin nature but TRULY repent from that and BE who Christ died for us to be. Saved by Grace>
Don’t get me wrong, I slip up daily. BUT, I don’t intentionaly sin. There is a big difference. That is why I live a Romans 12:1&2 lifestyle and daily I put myself before God as a living sacrifice to help me get the rest of the junk out of me. The thing is, I DO NOT practice sin anymore.
Love in Christ Jesus
Jake
I love this thought. Its true, we are not what we were, nor does He see us that way. What a day brightener! Thank you for what you do. You put a lot of work into this. God bless you, and Happy Easter to you, too.
Nonni
As long as we sin, we can rightfully be called sinners. If we have been saved by grace, we are free from the BONDAGE of sin and sin’s power over us. We do have a new nature, but we still live in a body ‘trained by sin”. One might say that before salvation we sinned because we we were sinners by nature, but that once a child of God with a new nature, we are sinners because we still sin, whether it be intentionally or not.
Also, Paul, in Romans 7, (in addition to the reference mentioned by TLT) uses the present tense to describe his battle with sin.
For anyone saved for longer than the ‘current moment’ has a period of time ‘in the past’. 1 John 1:10 on it’s face does not refere to a time before salvation and it is addressed to believers. Just because the past tense is used is not a valid argument.
John Gill’s commentary would offer:
If we say that we have not sinned
Have never sinned, in time past as well as now; deny original sin, and that men are born in sin, but affirm they come into the world pure and holy; and assert that concupiscence is not sin; and so not regarding internal lusts and desires as sinful, only what is external, fancy they have so lived as to have been without sin: but if any of us give out such an assertion,
Having said all that, I think your last comment indicates you have it right. As believers we do not continue in a lifestyle of sin.
Psalm 25:8 “Good and upright is the LORD; therefore he instructs sinners in his ways.” (In context the ‘sinners’ are believers – the remembered ones of v7 and the humble of v9).
1 Tim 1:15 “15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners–of whom I AM the worst.”
There’s no doubt that Scripture calls believers sinners. And at the same time righteous. The whole ‘Simultaneously righteous and sinner’ (simul iust et peccator) is not an invention of scholastic theologians – it’s precisely a description of the battle between flesh and Spirit that is the universal Christian experience.
Now it is important to appreciate that we really *are* in Christ, there is *now* no condemnation, we are new creations. Absolutely. And the more we appreciate the truth of this new status the more we will live like it. But we’re still sinners.
I understand what you are getting at. One of my favorite passages along that line is:
Ephesians 2:1-6
AND YOU WERE DEAD IN YOUR TRESPASSES AND SINS, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. BUT GOD, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places IN CHRIST JESUS,
(emphasis mine)
May God bless you as you labor in His kingdom.
Ah, there is nothing like the subject of sin to get people animated! For starters, perhaps the most vain thing one can do is to try and comprehend the scriptures by human effort and inquiry. God can tell you in a phrase or a sentence what you can struggle for years to never truly comprehend. You have to come to it as if a child, seeking instruction from the Father. Paul wrote that the natural man cannot comprehend the things of God, because they cause contention in him .
The crux of the issue of sin and righteousness is IDENTITY – as a man thinks in his heart, so is he. If you think that you are a sinner, then you will sin, and you will be a slave to sin. He that is “Born of God” cannot sin, for His Seed remains in him – it is no longer “I” who lives, but Christ which lives in me. The seeming contradictions to grace which appear to exist in the scriptures are actually contradictions in our understanding – so I have found it intelligent to simply assume when I strike such contradictions that the flaw must be in my understanding, for it is not in God, for in Him there is no darkness, neither shadow of turning, no contradicition.
I asked Jesus to teach me what it truly meant to be ONE, body, soul and spirit. At the same time, I had been inquiring of Him as to the unremittable sin, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and also why it was that we continued to make mistakes which were destructive to us and those around us.
I was taking a bath, when the Lord came to me and held out His hand – He said “Come” and at that command, I went to go with Him. I had been laying there with my hands behind me and while my natural body stayed put, my inner man went to rise up. I felt my “hands” rip free from a cross, from the nails of my own judgment and it was as if I felt my right and left hands and mind representing my Triune essence, becoming chorded into one – becoming ONE – like three streams or chords of consciousness becoming twined into one.
He said to me, “Walk in My footsteps.”
As I tried to do so, I sensed that He didn’t mean for me to follow after Him, but to actually walk IN HIM, in His steps, as ONE NEW PERSON.
I saw before me a minefield and He said “If you walk in My steps, I will walk you through the minefield of your own judgments – those things which you have spoken into being and which are unremittable – these are your self-sabotage mechanisms – your self-destructive judgments. What is impossible to Man, is possible with God.”
John wrote of a sin which is unto death, and that we should not pray for it – these are the unremittable consequences of your own “creative’ judgments – when you play at being god, knowing good and evil. If you want to know what the sin unto death is, simply read 1 James – “Every man is tempted when he is led aside of his own lust, and when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin and when sin is full grown, it brings forth death.” The Holy Spirit is the creative force of God – when we speak in contradiction (blasphemy) to the Spirit, we create that which cannot be undone – either in the age from which Jesus spoke, or the age which was to come – either in an Old Covenant context or the New.
The underlying fear that we may have done something which will have eternal consequences is that which keeps people in bondage to fear, and so they blindly stumble through the minefields of their own judgments and blow themselves up, but if you will walk in the Spirit, you will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Fear has torment, but perfect love casts out fear.
Now, with that in mind, read what Paul wrote to Timothy, quoting from the Amplified Bible:
11The saying is sure and worthy of confidence: If we have died with Him, we shall also live with Him.
12If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny and disown and reject Him, He will also deny and disown and reject us.
13If we are faithless [do not believe and are untrue to Him], He remains true (faithful to His Word and His righteous character), for He cannot deny Himself.
OK, so consider this, did we die with him, and were we resurrected together with Him? Of course! So, if we endure, continue, persevere in the consciousness of this grace, will we reign with Him? Of course! But if we deny, contradict, blaspheme so great a grace, will He not deny or contradict us? Of course He will! If we are faithless (when the Son of Man returns, will He find faith?) will He remain True to His own faith, to His own confession, to his own character? Of course He will. Will He at all be changed by what we do? Of course NOT!
Now think on this, He is the TRUTH, how does the TRUTH remain TRUE to itself/Himself? How does the TRUTH contradict a lie? By continuing to be TRUE, by never wavering or changing, by continuing to speak the Truth in Love. His confession over you never changes, and eventually you will conform to His Hope! His will is paramount – it is done, as in heaven, so in the earth. By continuing in His confession over you, you become transformed by the renewing of your mind, by having the Mind of Christ by adoption, and you will know all things, even the deep things of God! ARE YOU EXCITED YET? THIS IS BIGGER THAN TEXAS!
19. And perhaps it can be said, “Over what does He object?” for who will rise against his will?
20. Thus who are you, O, human being, that you present an argument to God? Why, does the mold say to its molder, “Why did you mold me thus?”
21.Or does not the potter have the authority over his clay, that from its mixture he molds a plate, one for honoring and one for ignominy?
22. If God wishes to show his wrath, and impart his power, there is much over which He can extend his wrath, against the vessels trained for destruction,
23. And [there is much over which He can] pour out his mercies, upon the vessels of mercy who hallowed God with glory —
24. Who are us, the called, not only from the Jews, except also from all the nations.
25. Whereas He said also through Hosea,
“I call those who were not my people my people,
And to those I was not merciful I shall be merciful.
26. “For there will be in the place where they were told
that they were not my people,
There they shall be called
the Children of the Living God.”
27. Isaiah preached regarding the Children of Israel, that even if their number became like the sand in the sea, certain of them will be [destined] for eternal Life. (Certain will be destined to carry the message of eternal life.)
28. The Manifestation (Word) will be developed and spread, and they shall make everyone worship our Lord on earth.
29. And like the thing that Isaiah had foretold,
“That if the Almighty Lord had not increased (empowered, enlarged)
the number (company) of the ordained,
We would have become like Sodom,
and would have resembled Gomorah.”
Romans 9, VA Aramaic Trans.
4. Rejoice in our Lord in every season, and again I say, rejoice.
5. And your gentle spirit will become known to every human being, for our Lord is always near.
6. So that you will never be at a loss for anything, except on every occasion, by kneeling down in prayer, by rogation and confession of faith, your questions will become known before God.
7. And the peace of God that is greater than anything, shall protect your hearts and make the answers known to you through Jesus Christ.
8. Hence, brethren, those things that are true, modest, righteous, pure, merciful, praiseworthy, and those acts of glorification and virtue — that is what you shall advocate.
9. Those things that you learned and accepted, heard and seen in me, that is what you shall commit to, and the God of Peace shall be with you.
Phillipians 4, VA Aramaic Trans.
Hallelujah!
Many times I hear Christians use the phrase “I’m just a sinner saved by grace” as an excuse and justification of their sins, as if they really cannot control the sin in their lives and that they are destined to sin. It always gets me riled, and saddened, because they have not found the truth in God’s Word…the truth that through Christ, we are NOT sinners…but are righteous and free from the enslavement of sin. I always bring up some of the verses you mentioned. Once they truly internalize these truths, it brings them freedom and confidence of who they are in Christ…people who can overcome!! God’s words are powerful and living; and I thank the Lord daily that I’m not destined to live in bondage to sin because HE has changed me and given me new life.
Brother,
I believe I understand your basis premise, however I am not sure I agree with you. Just as a theif is someone who steals even once, I would think that a sinner is one who sins even once. The problem then is not whether we are sinners but whether the righteousness of Jesus surrounds us and covers our sinfulness.
I would challenge you to look at this passage by the apostle Paul, “For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am made out of flesh,[6] Other mss read I am carnal sold into sin’s power.
15 For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
Paul seemed to believe that he was still battling the flesh and sin in his body. I know that I battle sin every day and lose those battles often. How then am I not a sinner? The beauty of the Gospel is that while I am a sinner God has had great mercy upon me and has brought me into His kingdom. I will be a sinner until I am transformed after the resurrection. And so I will rest in the robe of Christ righteousness wrapped tightly around such a sinner as myself.
Please let me know if I have misread you. I appreciate your postive look (glass half full) mentality. I hope you have a wonderful Easter. God bless.
Jake said:
“The main point in this is that we should no longer continue in our sin nature but TRULY repent from that and BE who Christ died for us to be. Saved by Grace>
Don’t get me wrong, I slip up daily. BUT, I don’t intentionaly sin. There is a big difference. That is why I live a Romans 12:1&2 lifestyle and daily I put myself before God as a living sacrifice to help me get the rest of the junk out of me. The thing is, I DO NOT practice sin anymore. ”
Now you’re getting to the crux of the matter. The best way I’ve ever heard it explained used the symbology of jumping into a pool, versus slipping or falling into that same pool, the pool being sin, of course. We all get wet…..some of slip and slide into the pool daily….some of us not so often as that. ….but there are those who claim the salvation of Christ, yet continue to leap into the pool with both feet, somehow thinking that simply “confessing” their latest leap is pleasing to God.
Christ above all,
Jon
I can appreciate your position as there is a great difference between the repentant sinner and the unrepentant sinner. When we repent, we are forgiven and cleansed. But we are only moving on toward perfection; therefore, we still sin, though less and less.
I do have one question for you. What do you do with Paul’s comments near the end of Romans 7. “What a wretched man I am…” as he confesses his continuous struggle with sin? We must always be willing to own up to our sins or we may become to proud to confess them and to know the true cleansing feeling of a clean heart before God.
http://hiswhisperings.wordpress.com
interesting post, Jake. and thanks for the visit at my blog too.
same as you, i also grew up in a denomination where i have to believe that “we are all sinners” but because of “grace” we are forgiven of our sins. But grace does not make me 100% sinless if my choices are still against the will of God. My point is that — people still sin from tiem to time but time to time too we pray earnestly that God will forgive us of our sins. right? So, for me, everyone is still a sinner. And because of Jesus’ death on the cross, we are not doomed to to eternal death(because of sin) because he has already redeemed us by His blood by dying on the cross earning for us an eternal life.
I remember someone says: “God hates sin but He loves the sinners.”
i jst want to point out too that am not a professional person when it comes to discussion about religion. But even then, i still firmly keep a strong faith in God because i know He is real.
Wow, what a lot of response. Well, as you’ve come looking in my patch of the woods, I’ll risk adding to the pile as simply as I can.
I haven’t a problem with being identified as a sinner because Paul was – 1 Tim 1:15 – notice the present tense. But it is outside of Christ which is where your great emphasis “saved” comes in.
John understood it when he wrote “I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense – Jesus Christ.” (1 Jn 2:1)
Yes sin shouldn’t be part of our lives and I liked Dan Cartwright’s comment about us being freed from the BONDAGE of sin. We no longer have to, yet reality says we sometimes still fall short of the glory of God. Without Christ I’m a hopeless daily case – and that is good for my humility. In him I’m an overcomer. How wonderful.
Great post to which I say AMEN!!!
I wrote a similar post on this very subject recently.
We are new a creation in Jesus Christ when we are born again; old things have passed away and all things have become new. We will wrestle with the flesh at tmes but the truth about grace is that it is the power of God working in and thorugh us that enables us to overcome, bless the Lord! We have in Christ “everything we need for life and godly living” and so the word of God continues to affirm what you’ve written here.
Blessings to you brother, I’m adding you to my blogroll! 🙂
Susan
One correspondent quoted that Paul considered that he was the worst of sinners. Not so, for Paul said:
1 Timothy 1:14-16 (Young’s Literal Translation)
14and exceedingly abound did the grace of our Lord, with faith and love that [is] in Christ Jesus:
15stedfast [is] the word, and of all acceptation worthy, that Christ Jesus came to the world to save sinners — first of whom I am;
16but because of this I found kindness, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all long-suffering, for a pattern of those about to believe on him to life age-during:
The idiom is, “Of who I am a prime example.”
This rendering from the VA Aramaic:
14. The grace of our Lord, however, was augmented in me, and likewise the faith and love of Jesus Christ.
15. Faithful is that Manifestation and deserving is He to be received, that Jesus Christ came to the universe to bring back to Life sinners, of whom I am a prime example. (Before whom I am I.)
16. Except because of it He took mercy on me, so that through me Jesus Christ would show the outpouring of His Spirit for the eyes of those who were destined to believe in Him, to receive through Him Life to [the end of] the universe.
Aa-meen.
So, is Paul a prime example of a sinner, or a prime example of the saving grace of God in Jesus Christ toward a sinner? You see, we understand according to our prejudice and programming, or according to Christ. If you think that you are simply a sinner who is saved by grace, then you will categorize people into saved and sinners, while thinking all the while that all are sinners except that some are “saved” sinners and that others are damned sinners. BUT, if you see that all were made righteous in Christ, then you will consider people as either knowing this, or yet to know this, and this is the mission of those whose call it is to preach the glorious hope of the kingdom, to let them know that God was in Christ, reconcliing the world to Himself, not reckoning their sins to their account, but reckoning the ighteousness of Christ as being theirs by faith, and not by works, lest any amn should boast.
Thank you for this post. Recently I’ve been telling myself and God repeatedly that I’m a sinner, because of the many times I’ve slipped. And when I read this today, it really reminded me that we’ve been saved by God’s grace, and that we do not practice sin.
Thank you and may the good Lord bless you.
I have just been going back over some of the responses and was alerted to the focus on Romans 7, and to people “missing” the point of Paul’s dissertation that it was not HE that sinned, but SIN which was at work within his flesh – which is contrasted by our righteousness not being of ourselves, but of Christ. It is important when reading Romans 7 to roll right on into chapter 8, lest we lose sight of what Paul is expounding.
To properly expound on Romans 7 would take a lot of space, so suffice to say that Paul says unequivocally that it is sin within his flesh which is at work, not he that is within sin. He goes right on to say.
1. Therefore, there is no obligation (to the Law) for those who do not walk according to the flesh with Jesus Christ.
2. For the Law that [leads to eternal] Life, that which is through Jesus Christ, shall free you from the Law of sin and death.
3. Because the Law was bolstered through the sickness of the flesh, God sent his Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, because of sin, so as he may subjugate sin through his flesh,
4. So that the righteousness of the Law may be fulfilled in us, that it was not by flesh that we walked, except by the Spirit.
5. For those who are of the flesh, see Him in the flesh. And those who are in the Spirit, see Him in Spirit.
6. For the appreciation of the flesh is Death and the appreciation of the Spirit is Life and Peace.
7. Because the appreciation of the flesh is hostility toward God, for it does not submit to the Law of God, because it cannot.
8. And those who are of the flesh, cannot adore God.
9. You, however, live not through the flesh, except by the Spirit, if truly the Spirit of God abides in you.
10. And if thus Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, then the Spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11. And if the Spirit of the One who raised our Lord Jesus Christ from the grave, abides in you, He that raised Jesus Christ from the grave, shall also [resurrect] your dead bodies to Life, because of the Spirit that abides in you.
OK, so the first point is, that Paul is comparing two laws – the law of sin and death, or the Mosaic Law, and the law of Life in Christ Jesus, which is the Master Law of the Universe. The first mistake that is made in comprehending verse one is that it is seen as a CONDITIONAL STATEMENT, in that there is no obligation (condemnation) AS LONG AS you do not walk according to the flesh. Bu this is not what Paul is saying, it is what sin consciousness assumes him to say. If you look at verse 9, it says that we live not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if truly the Spirit of God abides in you. So, does the Spirit of God abide in you, have you received the earnest (down-payment) of your salvation? Then if this is so, then verse one is not a conditional statement, BUT A STATEMENT OF YOUR CONDITION! AND, it is by AGREEING with this confession, that we are transformed by the renewing of our vision, of our mind, to THE TRUTH of JESUS CHRIST!
I learned this one time when I was in a house church meeting. These folk were Toronto types and into the manifestations of the Spirit, and some stuff which was clearly otherwise. A lady in front of me began to manifest some “spooky” behaviour and I was just about to judge her in my heart when the Holy Spirit touched me and illuminated the text I JUST happened to be reading at that time, which was Romans 8:9.
He said, “Is My Spirit inside that woman?”
Now I knew that she loved God, and was a dedicated believer in her own way, so I had to concede that yes, He was obviously in her.
“The how can you judge that she is in the flesh?” said He.
I was floored and immediately repented.
He then went on and said to me, “Romans 8:1 is a statement of condition, and not a conditional statement.”
He that is born of God cannot sin, for His Seed remains in him. If I drive, I have a car – if I say I have not a car and yet drive, I am a liar, yet I am not my car, and it is even not me which “drives”, but my car which driveth me. I can steer my car, I can use it for good, or I can use it for evil – Oh wretched driver that I am, who will help me steer this beast? But lo, I have a co-driver, called my Christ consciousness, who can help me to steer and will even fill the tank for me and navigate! It even has dual controls, and what’s this on the back…an “L” plate? Doh! But He does want us to grow up and learn to go “solo” to realise that we are in fact equipped to grow up and drive responsibly.
Shalom, Ian.
Brother Ian,
Thank you again for your input. As usual you speak right to the heart of the matter.
I am convinced of this one thing. The reason so many have a hard time coming to the place that they are no longer sinners, if they are of Christ and are the seed of The Father, it is simply because many behind the pulpit have not taught sufficiently on The Resurrection. I feel another post coming, amen?
Love in Christ Jesus
Jake
Pingback: “A Sinner Saved By Grace.” Well, which one are you ? Repost#2 « Lbolm’s Weblog
I created two posts that went along with this idea. Now, I would NOT say that we do not have sin, because we still have flesh. As long as we have the flesh, we have the ability to sin. Either intentionally or unintentionally.
Now, here was the main point of my posts:
You either live “trying not to sin” and wear yourself out because you are inward focused;
OR you live “trying to be like God” and keep your focus on God.
Through this process I have become very distinctly aware of my two natures. The nature of the Holy Spirit within me, and the nature of the flesh. I can feel the temptation for sexual immorality, but because my focus is now on God (instead of trying not to sin), the temptations are weakened, AND I find myself able to avoid situations that would feed that weakness of the flesh. It’s like seeing all the mines in the minefield marked before you get to them.
HOWEVER, I know I have Pride and Arrogance and sometimes I argue with people. Why? Because sometimes I just want to argue. Perhaps I’m in a bad mood. That is a sin. But now I don’t beat myself up over it. I ask God for forgiveness, get up, dust myself off and put my eyes back on God.
It is all about focus. Where is your focus? Is it on trying to be good enough? “Living trying not to sin”. Or is it on God and living for Him and letting Him catch you when you stumble?
Because we will stumble. If you don’t think you will, then you are arrogant. 🙂
The posts on my blog were:
“The Voice of Sin” (Feb 2008) “
“We’re Alive so Act Like It!” (Mar 2008)
In Christ,
Chris
http://sharpeningiron.wordpress.com/
Bro Jake,
A very good question. And a very good post. That should send us all back to the Scriptures, to check out these things for ourselves.
It’s in the “Label” we assign ourselves, that reflects our identity. Do we identify with “Sin”– of transgressing the Law–or as the “New Creation” of Messiah-in us, who is gently and quietly encouraging us NOT to “Sin.”
We should have the same agonizing within us, for ourselves, and for others, that Paul showed us in Gal 4:19. He was in “travail in birth again until Christ be formed” within them. Until we allow Messiah to be “formed” or “morphed” in us, we will still want to practice, and identify with, “Sin.” We will continue to “Transgress the Law.”
Bro Bill
Jake, you are right, there is simply not enough emphasis on the resurrection, for if we died together with Him, then were we raised together with Him? This simple point of identity is so often submerged under the cares of the world, the deceitfulness of riches and the lust for other things.
Again I stress the point, a mustard seed does not have an identity crisis, it does not equivocate over what it or another mustard seed is. If you have the (same kind of) faith as a mustard seed, then you will say to this mountain, to this mulberry bush, to this Sycamine tree, to this thing which rises out of the ground, this sinful human nature; be removed, be cast into the sea (of God’s forgetfulness) and you shall not doubt, and it shall be done for you of My Father.
The Lord once showed me how that our human nature was formed from the earth, and how our eternal nature came down from heaven out of God. (Nicodemus, don’t you know that you MUST BE born from above – where else could you come from if you were created in Christ before ever there was is?)
Now Jesus said that if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto Me, thus signifying what sort of death He would die. Unfortunately, scriptural cherry pickers do not read far enough to get the context, and unfortunately that too is the fault of many a pastor who will not research thoroughly enough and truly seek Jesus on what to say.
If you have ears to hear, then hear this! My comments are in parentheses ( ) but i believe I have the Mind of the Lord. The brackets [ ] are the tranlators work.
24. “Amen, amen, I am telling you, that a grain of wheat,
if it does not fall in death into the earth,
it shall remain by itself (nothing more than a grain);
but, if it dies,
it brings forth great rebirth (flocks – or reproduction after its one kind).
25. “Whoever pamper themselves,
go to oblivion; (Broad is the way to or of oblivion, and many there are who enter in by it.)
And whoever make themselves unpopular (of no account) among the people,
these [are the ones who] await (wait upon or serve) the everlasting Life.
26. “If someone becomes my servant (serves Mankind for Me),
they shall follow me;
And where I go to,
there also my servants shall follow.
Whoever serves me,
shall find favor with my Father.
27. “My being is troubled now,
and what shall I say?
‘Father, deliver me from this hour [?],
except it is to fulfill this hour that I have come.
28. “Creator [Father], glory [to] your name!”
And a voice sounded from heaven:
“Be glorified! And again glorify!”
29. And the crowds that stood, heard [it] and said, “It was thunder!” But
others said, “An angel spoke with him.”
30. Jesus replied and told them,
“It was not for my sake
that this utterance was heard (that this voice sounded),
Except for your sake.
31. “Now, the judgment of this universe is [at hand.]
Now, the ruler of the world here,
shall be cast outside.
32. “And I [as I surely] shall rise
out of the earth, (in resurrection power)
[Empower] every human being
to come to me.”
33. (All of) This he said, to show by which death he would die.
“He said this to clarify the kind of death he was talking about.”
OK, so what was Jesus really talking about? Back it up to the top and He is saying that He is going to fall into the earth as a grain of wheat. Now remember that our humanity, our humanness, comes out of the earth, for we were formed from the dust of the earth. Jesus is being sown back into the earth – He left His heavenly estate and He was lowered into the earth, and now He is to go further into it, in death, being fully conformed to the death of the cross, to the death of a man, for ALL humanity, He dies as the Son of Man, for Man. Stay your hand Abraham, I will provide MYSELF a sacrifice for all.
He said this to signify what sort of death He would die – as a SEED sown – He became a man to die as the Son of Man – to die as Adam and to be raised as the last Adam. For in Adam, all died, but in Christ, ALL were made alive!
Jesus said those who work for Me will go where I go – they shall have a revelation the death of the cross and they shall walk in the resurrection. Once you realise that ALL Mankind died at Calvary, that One died for All, that in the ONE, ALL died, then you can stride though resurrected lives together with HIM – Oh hallelujah, can you fee the power of the anointing grace of God in Jesus Christ on these words? I cannot see through the tears of joy! Glory to GOD! Somebody shout AMEN!
Thus He said, SIGNIFYING WHAT SORT OF DEATH HE WOULD DIE – ONCE AND FOR ALL!
Jake, you drew it out of me again!
Jake, you are right, there is simply not enough emphasis on the resurrection, for if we died together with Him, then were we raised together with Him? This simple point of identity is so often submerged under the cares of the world, the deceitfulness of riches and the lust for other things.
Again I stress the point, a mustard seed does not have an identity crisis, it does not equivocate over what it or another mustard seed is. If you have the (same kind of) faith as a mustard seed, then you will say to this mountain, to this mulberry bush, to this Sycamine tree, to this thing which rises out of the ground, this sinful human nature; be removed, be cast into the sea (of God’s forgetfulness) and you shall not doubt, and it shall be done for you of My Father.
The Lord once showed me how that our human nature was formed from the earth, and how our eternal nature came down from heaven out of God. (Nicodemus, don’t you know that you MUST BE born from above – where else could you come from if you were created in Christ before ever there was is?)
Now Jesus said that if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto Me, thus signifying what sort of death He would die. Unfortunately, scriptural cherry pickers do not read far enough to get the context, and unfortunately that too is the fault of many a pastor who will not research thoroughly enough and truly seek Jesus on what to say.
If you have ears to hear, then hear this!
24. “Amen, amen, I am telling you, that a grain of wheat,
if it does not fall in death into the earth,
it shall remain by itself (nothing more than a grain);
but, if it dies,
it brings forth great rebirth (flocks – or reproduction after its one kind).
25. “Whoever pamper themselves,
go to oblivion; (Broad is the way to or of oblivion, and many there are who enter in by it.)
And whoever make themselves unpopular (of no account) among the people,
these [are the ones who] await (wait upon or serve) the everlasting Life.
26. “If someone becomes my servant (serves Mankind for Me),
they shall follow me;
And where I go to,
there also my servants shall follow.
Whoever serves me,
shall find favor with my Father.
27. “My being is troubled now,
and what shall I say?
‘Father, deliver me from this hour [?],
except it is to fulfill this hour that I have come.
28. “Creator (Father), glory [to] your name!”
And a voice sounded from heaven:
“Be glorified! And again glorify!”
29. And the crowds that stood, heard [it] and said, “It was thunder!” But
others said, “An angel spoke with him.”
30. Jesus replied and told them,
“It was not for my sake
that this utterance was heard (that this voice sounded),
Except for your sake.
31. “Now, the judgment of this universe is [at hand.]
Now, the ruler of the world here,
shall be cast outside.
32. “And I [as I surely] shall rise
out of the earth, (in resurrection power)
[Empower] every human being
to come to me.”
33. (All of) This he said, to show by which death he would die.
“He said this to clarify the kind of death he was talking about.”
OK, so what was Jesus really talking about? Back it up to the top and He is saying that He is going to fall into the earth as a grain of wheat. Now remember that our humanity, our humanness, comes out of the earth, for we were formed from the dust of the earth. Jesus is being sown back into the earth – He left His heavenly estate and He was lowered into the earth, and now He is to go further into it, in death, being fully conformed to the death of the cross, to the death of a man, for ALL humanity, He dies as the Son of Man, for Man. Stay your hand Abraham, I will provide MYSELF a sacrifice for all.
He said this to signify what sort of death He would die – as a SEED sown – He became a man to die as the Son of Man – to die as Adam and to be raised as the last Adam. For in Adam, all died, but in Christ, ALL were made alive!
Jesus said those who work for Me will go where I go – they shall have a revelation the death of the cross and they shall walk in the resurrection. Once you realise that ALL Mankind died at Calvary, that One died for All, that in the ONE, ALL died, then you can stride though resurrected lives together with HIM – Oh hallelujah, can you fee the power of the anointing grace of God in Jesus Christ on these words? I cannot see through the tears of joy! Glory to GOD! Somebody shout AMEN!
Thus He said, SIGNIFYING WHAT SORT OF DEATH HE WOULD DIE – ONCE AND FOR ALL!
Jake, you drew it out of me again!
Jake, you are right, there is simply not enough emphasis on the resurrection, for if we died together with Him, then were we raised together with Him? This simple point of identity is so often submerged under the cares of the world, the deceitfulness of riches and the lust for other things.
Again I stress the point, a mustard seed does not have an identity crisis, it does not equivocate over what it or another mustard seed is. If you have the (same kind of) faith as a mustard seed, then you will say to this mountain, to this mulberry bush, to this Sycamine tree, to this thing which rises out of the ground, this sinful human nature; be removed, be cast into the sea (of God’s forgetfulness) and you shall not doubt, and it shall be done for you of My Father.
The Lord once showed me how that our human nature was formed from the earth, and how our eternal nature came down from heaven out of God. (Nicodemus, don’t you know that you MUST BE born from above – where else could you come from if you were created in Christ before ever there was is?)
Now Jesus said that if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto Me, thus signifying what sort of death He would die. Unfortunately, scriptural cherry pickers do not read far enough to get the context, and unfortunately that too is the fault of many a pastor who will not research thoroughly enough and truly seek Jesus on what to say. If you have ears to hear, then hear this!
24. “Amen, amen, I am telling you, that a grain of wheat,
if it does not fall in death into the earth,
it shall remain by itself (nothing more than a grain);
but, if it dies,
it brings forth great rebirth (flocks – or reproduction after its one kind).
25. “Whoever pamper themselves,
go to oblivion; (Broad is the way to or of oblivion, and many there are who enter in by it.)
And whoever make themselves unpopular (of no account) among the people,
these [are the ones who] await (wait upon or serve) the everlasting Life.
26. “If someone becomes my servant (serves Mankind for Me),
they shall follow me;
And where I go to,
there also my servants shall follow.
Whoever serves me,
shall find favor with my Father.
27. “My being is troubled now,
and what shall I say?
‘Father, deliver me from this hour [?],
except it is to fulfill this hour that I have come.
28. “Creator (Father), glory [to] your name!”
And a voice sounded from heaven:
“Be glorified! And again glorify!”
29. And the crowds that stood, heard [it] and said, “It was thunder!” But
others said, “An angel spoke with him.”
30. Jesus replied and told them,
“It was not for my sake
that this utterance was heard (that this voice sounded),
Except for your sake.
31. “Now, the judgment of this universe is [at hand.]
Now, the ruler of the world here,
shall be cast outside.
32. “And I [as I surely] shall rise
out of the earth, (in resurrection power)
[Empower] every human being
to come to me.”
33. (All of) This he said, to show by which death he would die.
“He said this to clarify the kind of death he was talking about.”
OK, so what was Jesus really talking about? Back it up to the top and He is saying that He is going to fall into the earth as a grain of wheat. Now remember that our humanity, our humanness, comes out of the earth, for we were formed from the dust of the earth. Jesus is being sown back into the earth – He left His heavenly estate and He was lowered into the earth, and now He is to go further into it, in death, being fully conformed to the death of the cross, to the death of a man, for ALL humanity, He dies as the Son of Man, for Man. Stay your hand Abraham, I will provide MYSELF a sacrifice for all.
He said this to signify what sort of death He would die – as a SEED sown – He became a man to die as the Son of Man – to die as Adam and to be raised as the last Adam. For in Adam, all died, but in Christ, ALL were made alive!
Jesus said those who work for Me will go where I go – they shall have a revelation the death of the cross and they shall walk in the resurrection. Once you realise that ALL Mankind died at Calvary, that One died for All, that in the ONE, ALL died, then you can stride though resurrected lives together with HIM – Oh hallelujah, can you fee the power of the anointing grace of God in Jesus Christ on these words? I cannot see through the tears of joy! Glory to GOD! Somebody shout AMEN!
Thus He said, SIGNIFYING WHAT SORT OF DEATH HE WOULD DIE – ONCE AND FOR ALL!
ake, you drew it out of me again!
Brother Ian sent me this email, in which I am now posting it for him.
Jake, you are right, there is simply not enough emphasis on the resurrection, for if we died together with Him, then were we raised together with Him? This simple point of identity is so often submerged under the cares of the world, the deceitfulness of riches and the lust for other things.
Again I stress the point, a mustard seed does not have an identity crisis, it does not equivocate over what it or another mustard seed is. If you have the (same kind of) faith as a mustard seed, then you will say to this mountain, to this mulberry bush, to this Sycamine tree, to this thing which rises out of the ground, this sinful human nature; be removed, be cast into the sea (of God’s forgetfulness) and you shall not doubt, and it shall be done for you of My Father.
The Lord once showed me how that our human nature was formed from the earth, and how our eternal nature came down from heaven out of God. (Nicodemus, don’t you know that you MUST BE born from above – where else could you come from if you were created in Christ before ever there was is?)
Now Jesus said that if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto Me, thus signifying what sort of death He would die. Unfortunately, scriptural cherry pickers do not read far enough to get the context, and unfortunately that too is the fault of many a pastor who will not research thoroughly enough and truly seek Jesus on what to say. If you have ears to hear, then hear this!
24. “Amen, amen, I am telling you, that a grain of wheat,
if it does not fall in death into the earth,
it shall remain by itself (nothing more than a grain);
but, if it dies,
it brings forth great rebirth (flocks – or reproduction after its one kind).
25. “Whoever pamper themselves,
go to oblivion; (Broad is the way to or of oblivion, and many there are who enter in by it.)
And whoever make themselves unpopular (of no account) among the people,
these [are the ones who] await (wait upon or serve) the everlasting Life.
26. “If someone becomes my servant (serves Mankind for Me),
they shall follow me;
And where I go to,
there also my servants shall follow.
Whoever serves me,
shall find favor with my Father.
27. “My being is troubled now,
and what shall I say?
‘Father, deliver me from this hour [?],
except it is to fulfill this hour that I have come.
28. “Creator (Father), glory [to] your name!”
And a voice sounded from heaven:
“Be glorified! And again glorify!”
29. And the crowds that stood, heard [it] and said, “It was thunder!” But
others said, “An angel spoke with him.”
30. Jesus replied and told them,
“It was not for my sake
that this utterance was heard (that this voice sounded),
Except for your sake.
31. “Now, the judgment of this universe is [at hand.]
Now, the ruler of the world here,
shall be cast outside.
32. “And I [as I surely] shall rise
out of the earth, (in resurrection power)
[Empower] every human being
to come to me.”
33. (All of) This he said, to show by which death he would die.
“He said this to clarify the kind of death he was talking about.”
OK, so what was Jesus really talking about? Back it up to the top and He is saying that He is going to fall into the earth as a grain of wheat. Now remember that our humanity, our humanness, comes out of the earth, for we were formed from the dust of the earth. Jesus is being sown back into the earth – He left His heavenly estate and He was lowered into the earth, and now He is to go further into it, in death, being fully conformed to the death of the cross, to the death of a man, for ALL humanity, He dies as the Son of Man, for Man. Stay your hand Abraham, I will provide MYSELF a sacrifice for all.
He said this to signify what sort of death He would die – as a SEED sown – He became a man to die as the Son of Man – to die as Adam and to be raised as the last Adam. For in Adam, all died, but in Christ, ALL were made alive!
Jesus said those who work for Me will go where I go – they shall have a revelation the death of the cross and they shall walk in the resurrection. Once you realise that ALL Mankind died at Calvary, that One died for All, that in the ONE, ALL died, then you can stride though resurrected lives together with HIM – Oh hallelujah, can you fee the power of the anointing grace of God in Jesus Christ on these words? I cannot see through the tears of joy! Glory to GOD! Somebody shout AMEN!
Thus He said, SIGNIFYING WHAT SORT OF DEATH HE WOULD DIE – ONCE AND FOR ALL!
Jake, you drew it out of me again!
Ian,
Your post reminds me of what my Brother Fred got in the Spirit last year.
A lot of people have studied the “Purpose Driven Life”, but maybe we should be studying a “Purpose Driven Death”.
A lot of people in The Body are still dealing with a sin conscience. The wages of sin is death. Therefore many have not been able to move past The Cross. That is an “outer court” place where you come face to face with your sin nature and place it upon the altar, The Cross. If one stay at The Cross, they can never move into the “inner court”, into His presence. HE ain’t on The Cross anymore. HE went to the grave, the place where resurrection occurs, the True “Born Again” experience. Jesus told Nicodemus that you must be “Born Again”, which is to say, take up your cross{deal with your sin} follow me { into the resurrection” to become “Born Again {the New Creature}!! Now Jesus, being resurrected, is seated at the right hand of the Father, in the place where he told us we are to come to, through Him.
Lord Jesus, help me to “die ” of myself, so that I may be with you even more!
Love in Christ Jesus
Jake
I was once listening to an American lady who worked for me telling me how that we had to “die to self”. Now I always found this an aberration, as it is no longer “I” who lives, but Christ which lives in me, so I saw it as a denial of grace. I asked within myself how should I answer her, and the Spirit of Grace said, “Ask her if you have to die to yourself, then how can you love your neighbour as yourself?” Die to self is one of those throw away lines that Christendom is replete with, but which have the appearance of wisdom, but which are empty.
A real eye opener for me was when reading Vic Alexander’s Aramaic Translation, I was given to see in John 3 something of the true nature of the “new Birth” to which I had been blind. The key is that we are RE-newed, or made new again. When you were formed in Christ, you were NEW, then you became OLD, separated from God, then you were RE-newed as from the beginning – yet I give unto you a NEW commandment, yet not NEW, but OLD (original), as from the beginning.
Many years ago, I had an encounter with a messenger (angel) whilst at church. A man came to our church and as was my want in those days, I was on him like a chicken on a bug, trying to make him feel at ease in OUR church, and finding out where he came from. He looked at me with a calm and peace, and a sense of knowing that threw me, and said, “You do not understand the New Birth or the Way of Salvation.” I was intrigued, as I sensed very strongly that he knew what he was talking about so I asked him to please explain – he said that it was not for him to do so, but that I would come to know of what he spoke in time.
Many years later, I began to see that much of the orthodox comprehension of salvation was seriously flawed and that this was why the church was in the state that it was and in, and why the asylums and surgeries are filled with broken Christians and why the church is filled with broken marriages and messed up believers, and why it is that the (mixed) messages you get on Sunday do not prepare you for a week in the world, but they are designed to make you weak in the world, and a prey for roaring lions.
3. Jesus replied and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, if [the]
human [being] is not born from above (from the head, or again),
they cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
4. Nicodemus said to him, “How can an old man get born, how can he
enter his mother’s womb a second time (season), to become born [again?]
5. Jesus replied and said to him, “Amen, amen, I am telling you, if [the]
human [being] is not born from the waters and the Spirit, they cannot
enter the Kingdom of God. (Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom.)
6. “Whoever is born of the flesh, is of the flesh, and whoever is born of
the Spirit, is of the Spirit.
7. “Do not be surprised that [they] tell you, that it is expected of you to
be born from above.
8. “The Spirit moves [you] for [the sake of] its own fulfillment, and you
listen to its voice; except, you do not know from where it came and
where it went. This is how it is with every human [being] who is born of
the Spirit.”
The key line is verse 6 – whoever is born of the Spirit is OF the Spirit, and whoever is born of the flesh, is of the flesh. Henceforth, know we NO MAN according to the flesh! The flesh goes to oblivion! Now note too that it was Nicodemus who said “Born again” and not Jesus – He said, “Born from above – of the Spirit.” When I first saw this, it came to me as, “Nicodemus, don’t you know that you MUST BE born from above – where else could you have come from? You were created in Christ, before the foundations of the worlds – this is your true identity with which you have to reconnect.”
I have been privileged to see something of the change that is coming to the Body of Christ in these days, of the reformation which is to occur. God will (re)build His Body according to the pattern in the heavens, according to the body not made with hands forever in the heavens. He will construct it from His very DNA, which is Christ.
Trying to relate this to most Christians is like trying to explain advanced science to a pre-school child who still believes in fairies and hobgoblins and it is love which enables us to even survive in this hodge-podge of doctrines of demons which infests Christendom. The Jesuits say, “Give me the child until 7 and I will give you the man.” Sadly, this is very much the case in Christendom as a whole, and the only way in which I have been instructed to deal with this is to challenge people to pray this simple prayer. “Lord, I offer up all that I know to you, I purpose to know only Christ Jesus and Him crucified; please teach me all that I need to know, when I need to know it, by your Holy Spirit within me, so that I may fulfill your purpose for my life, and keep me from becoming set in my ways and show me all that I have become burdened with which is not of Christ, and enable me to walk fully in Your Way – Aa-meen.”
For my part, the last 7 years or so has been the most intense time of “re-birth” and reformation, of revival and re-membering, of growing up into the fullness of Him, of being stripped of all my “knowing” and being filled with His knowing, of gaining Christ and the mind of Christ – of entering in to the deep things of God. The more that it happens, the more I am brought to drown in His presence, and the more I am taught to speak as the oracles of God. 7 years ago I was standing in a motel room in Noosa, Australia, and I could see streams of revelation knowledge coming down out of heaven and filling my mind with understanding – there were four happening at once and it literally got too much for me to receive, and I asked Him why He was showering me with so much revelation, and He said, “Because you asked.”
But out of all this, I have come to know that even if I have all knowledge and know all mysteries, that unless I have love, I am nothing.
It is good to be endowed with the Gifts of God, so ask, that your joy may be full, but yet I show unto you a more perfect way – LOVE! Be ye therefore perfect(ed in love) as your Father in heaven is perfect. Then will you have the Mind of Christ, and having then the Spirit, you are given to know the things of the Spirit of God, even the deep things of God.
But most of all, be prepared to hold lightly to what you think that you know – for I can assure you that most of what you think that you know is either borrowed from others, conditioned by culture, or of the flesh and not of Christ. The big challenge I give to people is to ask Jesus to strip away everything that is not of Him…are you prepared to take the challenge, to really lay it on the line?
Peace, Ian.
So is Ian saying that ALL men will be saved? i.e. Universalism?
In Christ,
Chris
Also for sake of clarity, is Ian saying that he does in fact not sin [At All] ?
In Christ,
Chris
Nah, you are trying to figure it out with your mind – hear with your heart. That which is of the Spirit is Spirit, that which is of the flesh is flesh. That which is sown in the Spirit is reaped in the Spirit, that which is sown in the flesh is raped in the flesh.
I once asked Jesus (after getting some very confronting revealtion on hell) just who goes to heaven and who goes to hell? He said, “It is like this Ian, whatsoever is of Me returns to Me, and whatsoever is not, does not.”
Later on I was to read in Colossians 1, (NLT):
15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
16 for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.
18 Christ is also the head of the church,
which is his body.
He is the beginning,
supreme over all who rise from the dead.[f]
So he is first in everything.
19 For God in all his fullness
was pleased to live in Christ,
20 and through him God reconciled
everything to himself.
He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth
by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
And from Romans 11:
36 For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.
Unless you have your foundational basics worked out, the rest will be a mess of seeming contradictions, and you will be ever wanting to define, label and confine.
He who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The problem I encounter is that so many people have such an investment in promoting hell, that they forget to lay up treasure in heaven, and they are so burdened by Phariseeism, that they never really enter in to the kingdom of God and of heaven – which is peace, joy and righteousness in the Holy Spirit.
Shalom.
Grace……….when you know that Grace bent down and picked you up – that Grace in these times saved you and set you free………only to discover that it was Grace that has surrounded you since you were in the womb……. the only question that remains is, How Amazing Lord, is your Grace, that you call Me your Child………….
Testing, one, two, three….
Ah, we are back online.
Nah, you are trying to figure it out with your mind – hear with your heart. That which is of the Spirit is Spirit, that which is of the flesh is flesh. That which is sown in the Spirit is reaped in the Spirit, and that which is sown in the flesh is raped in the flesh.
I once asked Jesus (after getting some very confronting revelation on hell) just who goes to heaven and who goes to hell? He said, “It is like this Ian, whatsoever is of Me returns to Me, and whatsoever is not, does not.”
Later on I was to read in Colossians 1, (NLT):
15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
16 for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together.
18 Christ is also the head of the church,which is his body.
He is the beginning, supreme over all who rise from the dead.
So he is first in everything.
19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,
20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself.
He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth
by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
And from Romans 11:
36 For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.
Unless you have your foundational basics worked out, the rest will be a mess of seeming contradictions, and you will be ever wanting to define, label and confine.
He who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The problem I encounter is that so many people have such an investment in promoting hell, that they forget to lay up treasure in heaven, and they are so burdened by Phariseeism, that they never really enter in to the kingdom of God and of heaven – which is peace, joy and righteousness in the Holy Spirit.
Shalom.
I tried to post this already but the internet demons obviously did not like it!
I was once listening to an American lady who worked for me telling me how that we had to “die to self”. Now I always found this an aberration, as it is no longer “I” who lives, but Christ which lives in me, so I saw it as a denial of grace. I asked within myself how should I answer her, and the Spirit of Grace said, “Ask her if you have to die to yourself, then how is that you are told to love your neighbour as yourself?” Die to self is one of those throw away lines that Christendom is replete with, but which have the appearance of wisdom, but which are essentially empty and powerless.
A real eye opener for me was when reading Vic Alexander’s Aramaic Translation; I was given to see in John 3 something of the true nature of the “New Birth” to which I had been blind. The key is that we are RE-newed, or made new again. When you were formed in Christ, you were NEW, then you became OLD, then you were RE-newed as from the beginning – yet I give unto you a NEW commandment, yet not NEW, but OLD (original), as from the beginning.
Many years ago, I had an encounter with a messenger (angel) whilst at church. A man came to our church and as was my want in those days, I was on him like a chicken on a bug, trying to make him feel at ease in OUR church, and finding out where he came from and whether we might proselytize him. He looked at me with a peace and sense of knowing that threw me, and said, “You do not understand the New Birth or the Way of Salvation.” I was intrigued, as I sensed very strongly that he knew what he was talking about so I asked him to please explain – he said that it was not for him to do so, but that I would come to know of what he spoke in time.
Many years later, I began to see that much of the orthodox comprehension of salvation was seriously flawed and that this was why the Church was in the state that it was and is, and why the asylums are filled with broken Christians and why the church is filled with broken marriages and messed up believers, and why it is that the (mixed) messages you get on Sunday do not prepare you for a week in the world, but they are designed to make you weak in the world, and a prey for roaring lions.
3. Jesus replied and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, if [the]
human [being] is not born from above (from the head, or again),
they cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
4. Nicodemus said to him, “How can an old man get born, how can he
enter his mother’s womb a second time (season), to become born [again?]
5. Jesus replied and said to him, “Amen, amen, I am telling you, if [the]
human [being] is not born from the waters and the Spirit, they cannot
enter the Kingdom of God. (Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom.)
6. “Whoever is born of the flesh, is of the flesh, and whoever is born of
the Spirit, is of the Spirit.
7. “Do not be surprised that [they] tell you, that it is expected of you to
be born from above.
8. “The Spirit moves [you] for [the sake of] its own fulfillment, and you
listen to its voice; except, you do not know from where it came and
where it went. This is how it is with every human [being] who is born of
the Spirit.”
The key line is verse 6 – whoever is born of the Spirit is OF the Spirit, and whoever is born of the flesh, is of the flesh. Henceforth, know we NO MAN according to the flesh! The flesh goes to oblivion! Now note too that it was Nicodemus who said “Born again” and not Jesus – He said, “Born from above – of the Spirit.” When I first saw this, it came to me as, “Nicodemus, don’t you know that you MUST BE born from above – where else could you have come from? You were created in Christ, before the foundations of the worlds – this is your true identity with which you have to reconnect.”
have been privileged to see something of the change that is coming to the Body of Christ in these days, of the reformation which is to occur. God will (re)build His Body according to the pattern in the heavens, according to the body not made with hands, forever in the heavens. He will construct it from His very DNA, which is Christ.
Trying to relate this to most Christians is like trying to explain advanced science to a pre-school child who still believes in fairies and hobgoblins, and Santa Claus, and it is only love which enables us to even survive in this hodge-podge of doctrines of demons which infests Christendom. The Jesuits say, “Give me the child until 7 and I will give you the man.” Sadly, this is very much the case in Christendom as a whole, and the only way in which I have been instructed to deal with this is to challenge people to pray this simple prayer. “Lord, I offer up all that I know to you, I purpose to know only Christ Jesus and Him crucified; please teach me all that I need to know, when and how I need to know it, by your Holy Spirit within me, so that I may fulfill your purpose for my life, and keep me from becoming set in my ways and show me all that I have become burdened with which is not of Christ, and enable me to walk fully in Your Way – Aa-meen.”
For my part, the last 7 years or so has been the most intense time of “re-birth” and reformation, of revival and re-membering, of growing up into the fullness of Him, of being stripped of all my “knowing” and being filled with His knowing, of gaining Christ and the mind of Christ – of entering into the deep things of God. The more that it happens, the more I am brought to drown in His presence, and the more I am taught to speak as the oracles of God.
7 years ago I was standing in a motel room in Noosa, Australia, and I could see streams of revelation knowledge coming down out of heaven and filling my mind with understanding – there were four happening at once and it literally got too much for me to receive, and I asked Him why He was showering me with so much revelation, and He said, “Because you asked.”
But out of all this, I have come to know that even if I have all knowledge and know all mysteries, that unless I have love, I am nothing. It is good to be endowed with the Gifts of God, so ask, that your joy may be full, but yet I show unto you a more perfect way – LOVE! Be ye therefore perfect(ed in love) as your Father in heaven is perfect. Then will you have the Mind of Christ, and having then the Spirit, you are given to know the things of the Spirit of God, even the deep things of God.
But most of all, be prepared to hold lightly to what you think that you know – for I can assure you that most of what you think that you know is either borrowed from others, conditioned by culture, or of the flesh and not of Christ. In fact, the big challenge I give to people is to ask Jesus to strip away everything that is not of Him…are you prepared to take the challenge, to really lay it on the line?
Peace, Ian.
Ian, I wish you answer the two very simple questions that I asked.
In Christ,
Chris
http://sharpeningiron.wordpress.com/
And what would that achieve? Would that enable you to categorize and pigeon hole me according to your doctrines? I did answer your question. The answer to your own questions are in your own heart. I know what I believe and it is obvious by what I write – and emminently clear by what Jesus, Paul and others said, that it is SIN WHICH SINS – righteousness cannot sin – so you must ask yourself – are you sin or are you righteousness? If you struggle with this, then Peter wrote:
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3. So as of all these [gifts] that are from Godly Power, He gave us with respect to eternal life and the submission to God, for the purpose of that declaration that He called us, through His glory and generosity,
4. That by these means, He would bless you with congratulations, greatness and honor, so as through them you may be partakers of the Divine essence as you alight from the throes of worldly desires.
5. And, then, as you bear all these gifts, add virtue to your faith and knowledge to your virtue,
6. And, then, add endurance to your knowledge and hope to your endurance, and, finally, add submission of God to your hope.
7. However, as you add submission to God, you will be merciful to your brothers and sisters, and then such mercy entails love.
8. For while these [gifts] have been found among you and they increased, it was neither in vain, nor without giving fruit with respect to the declaration of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. For whoever is not found with these [gifts] is the blind who cannot see and is still searching for the cleansing of their original sins.
10. And over this do your level best through good deeds, as your calling and election are affirmed through your actions, for as you do these things, you will not offend anyone.
11. For thus you will be increasingly given the entrance to the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
It has been my experience that those who ask pointed questions are like they who tested Jesus, trying to catch Him out with HIS WORDS. I am also wary of anything that ends with an ISM as it connotes immediately the taking of a position – there is onlly one ISM in the Kingdom – baptism.
Paul wrote that Jesus Christ was/is the savior of ALL MEN, especially those who believe. An interesting exercise is to go through your Bible (use a search engine like Biblegateway) and look up ALL the references to ALL in the New Testament. It will take you a while, but I suspect that by the time you get to the end, you will start to see that maybe we have been blnded by our own judgment all these years and that God is much more able to save than we give Him credit for.
“Who then might be saved”
“With MEN it is IMPOSSIBLE, but with GOD, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE”.
So at the risk of being called obtuse, I am not going to tell you what I think, but what God says, and though many might imagine to throw up all sorts of obstacles and arguments, the seeming contradictions are in our/your understanding and not in God.
I think “redbird” knows aout grace – foe we have grace from the beginning – the whole of creation is a work of grace. What gets God angry is minds darkened by deliberate ignorance of grace, for that which may be know of God is obvious by His creation. Just think, who was it that got Jesus angry? Was it the devil, the sinners, the Romans? NO, it was those who said they served God but who did not!
Shalom.
No, what gets God angry is disobedience.
It is either obedience or disobedience in our relationship to God. Either unintentional or intentional.
God Bless,
Chris
http://sharpeningiron.wordpress.com/
One of the most liberating moments of my life occurred while having a holiday on my own, just to set myself to hear, I had a run of amazing things happening – it was just like walking in a degree of submission, obedience, connectedness, immersion. It was also a time of some fleshy fits and foibles but it was like that these were overlooked of obscured by the more overwhelming grace – it was not like presuming upon grace, but that grace was much bigger and more important than any minor transgressions – it was like walking in forgiveness. Now I know there’s a whole bunch of refined people out their who don’t do no sinnin’, and they is perfect in all their ways! They keep the Law faithfully and they know that God is only to willin’ to punish ALL DISOBEDIENCE! But lo, what light is that a comin’ from the East unto the West – what’s that, it was Paul you say and he said what?
1. I, Paul, beg you then, in peace and gentleness of Christ, that even though when face to face, I am gentle with you, except when from afar I am still concerned for you.
2. I beg you then, so when I come I do not get depressed by this concern I have for you, as it saddens me to notice people that perceive us as walking in the flesh.
3. For even though we walk in the flesh, except we do not do our work through the flesh.
4. For the excellence of our work is not through the flesh, except by the power of God, and through it we capture the entrenched conquests.
There is a huge revelation of what this is, but it would take a whole essay to properly relate, but in essence the entrenched conquests are those which were captured in Christ – it is like the powers and principalities in the heavens actually speaks of the authority of Jesus, and not of the devil, for the devil has not authority except that it be granted him by men created in the image of God, and to us, the Church, to whom was committed All Authority – to keep the Law, but not the Law of Moses, the Law of Life in Christ Jesus, the Master law of the Universe which might be summed up in One Saying, that you should love, one to another, as he first (originally, from the beginning) loved you.
The Law of Moses and the Law of the Prophets was to speak into being the culmination of the Law – the Perfect Man – Jesus. It was summed up as You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and the second, which is just like it, that you should love your neighbour as yourself – so to love your neighbour is to Love God.
If you love God, then you will love your neighbour, but if you do not love your neighbour, then you do not love God and you are just kidding yourself, deluding yourself as John said, and this delusion has come from the throne – it is the punishing captivity of the judgment of the Law.
Now Jesus answered the Pharisees, who were trying to take Him AT HIS OWN WORD(S), according to the Law of Moses, which was still the governing, operable principle! They were sinister men, the quintessence of evil – possessors of self-righteousness! They who tithe mint and dill and cumin, and yet overlook the weightier matters of the Law – Truth and Love and Justice and Mercy! Nit picking mote removers! (But then does this desire to know and to teach is also vanity, is corruption at work? This compulsion to be heard? Himmmm….)
But privately, He said to HIS DISIPLES – yet a NEW saying I give to you – I Am speaking MY LAW, MY WILL, MY WAYinto Being – I Am dictating, pre-dicting My Will and Testament – the renewing of everything in heaven and earth again, from the head. It is a NEW saying, or it is the way in which ‘NEW’ SPEAKS – that you shall love one another AS I FIRST LOVED YOU. Forgive that you may too be forgiven – for God has already judged sin in the flesh and it is all under judgment until the Day.
Pure obedience and true religion is to attend to the genuinely needy, and keep from being spotted by the world – so wear a disguise already – Put on Christ!
5. And we unravel pretensions and every greatness that rises against the knowledge of God, and we lay open all our senses to obeying Christ.
6. And we are blessed to perform that devotion, apart from those that did not obey, until their obedience has been made manifest.
Now is not that a whole lot more like God, than “and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.”
7. Do you gaze into people’s faces? If a human being imagines themselves belonging to Christ, they will understand of themselves that they belong to Christ, likewise we also.
8. For if I am moreover proud of the authority that our Lord has give me, I am not embarrassed, because it is to build you up and not to tear you down.
9. I hope then that I am not preaching to you as one who is [trying to bring you into submission] through his letter.
10. For there are people that say that the Letters are heavy and oppressive, his presence however is brief and his word is difficult to keep.
11. Except this depends on their point of view, whereas we may seem as distant through the words of the Letter, but we are nevertheless closer through our deeds.
12. For we do not presume or pretend ourselves to be among the proud. Except those who delude themselves do not [see themselves] as being foolish.
13. We, however, are not proud beyond measure, except according to the measure of character that God has doled out to us, so as we may even impart some to you.
14. For it is not like we would betray ourselves if we did not get to you. For we have already reached you with the Hope in Christ.
15. And we are not proud beyond measure as a result of others behavior, except we are hopeful as your faith grows, your [character] develops according to our expectations.
16. And it develops also until you too preach [the Kingdom,] not according to the expectations of others, thus we shall be proud of those gains also.
17. For whoever is proud, is proud in the Lord.
18. For it is not he that glorifies himself that prevails, except they who are glorified by the Lord.
Jake
You responded to a blog I wrote and asked me to read yours. I have and really appreciate what you have said. I have posted a reply on my blog but also I wanted to share with you the same reply on your blog.
dave
Thank you for your good thoughts. I had a chance to read your article. I liked it and agree whole heartedly with it. The purpose of my post was more of a prayerful thought than seeking to have a concise doctrinal statement. I try to stay away from the term “sinner saved by grace” as I know I am a new creation in Christ. My position in Christ is one of a saint. That position is truer than anything I feel.
The intent of my article was to show how I have witnessed the devastating effects of sin in the people who still live a Christ-less life. I also see my struggle with sin. I say that with hesitation because the reality is that sin has been defeated on the cross. But the closer I come to Christ I see how desperate And totally hopeless I am on my own. Yes sin has been defeated and my greatest struggle is not that the “old dog” is dead, but that I still want the kick it from time to time.
AWESOME SITE. PRAISE GOD FOR YOU AND WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
MAY GOD TRULY BLESS YOU
its funny i understand what you are saying and i agree.
i think those who disagree are simply missing it. yea we all sin probably by the minute. and yes that makes us a “sinner” but lets say i am a hells angel, and i decide i dont want to be a hells angel any more. I am not going to go around saying to every body that i am a hells angel even if i still ride my Harley and talk to my old friends. no matter to actions or habits that i fall back into, because i want change i am not going to identify myself with being that hells angel. now granted i’ve never been a hells angel but the point is this instead of identifying yourself with sin, identify yourself with Jesus.
it’s so sad that so many “Christians” get stuck at the mercy stage. “Ooooooh Glory! i’m just a poor sinner saved by grace” and thats as far as it goes.
im saying move past the mercy stage and start blessing others. stop claiming yourself as a sinner and focus on doing what you have been saved by grace to do. so what if you sin! repent and stop sinning in that area. then move past it. and if you cant seem to get over a sin you’ve committed, get out of the house and go bless someone. i guarantee you, the more you do what God is telling you to do and stop focusing on the sin so much the less you will do it. because the more you focus on something the more likely you are to do it. so for crying out loud, focus on what God has saved you for… yes get up… go outside… shoot a smile to your neighbor or something. start somewhere.
Grace and Peace,
O’Ryan
Thank you O”Ryan,
Yes, too many are focus on their “sin nature”, than on the “new creature” that Christ died for them to be, and has urged them to become.
I thank everybody for coming by lately. I have been tied up with ministry work as well as some personal things. I will fill everybody in on what The Father is doing in our ministry soon.
Keep coming by and feel free to comment. We are ALL a part of HIS family!!!!
Love in Christ Jesus
Jake
Hi
I respect your religion; but I don’t agree that Jesus died for anybody’s sins.
Kindly visit my blogsite and read my post on “the truth about Jesus” for any peaceful comments and or peaceful discussion on interesting posts/pages there. You are welcome for your differing opinion/thoughts if you so like.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
Comment by paarsurrey on June 7, 2008 12:13
Hi
I respect your religion; but I don’t agree that Jesus died for anybody’s sins.
Hi paarsurrey,
I am sorry you don’t agree with the Truth! It is still the truth whether you agree or not !
One thing though, it wasn’t just anybody’s sin, it was for everybody’s sin and that includes you too. The choice of believing is left up to whomever will believe and call upon the Name of Jesus. He will not force His will upon you . He has made it possible that you can enter into the gates of heaven by simple Faith, for without Faith it is impossible to please God. Before there was any written word of God, there was a man named Enoch. His Faith in God was so great that God took him on up to heaven without even dieing. And he, Enoch, had never even heard of Jesus.
The main reason I shared this post to start with, is so that people can walk in the fullnes of who God has called them to be, without quilt and shame, without someone telling them how they are unworthy over and over. God the Father is Love unconditional and He wants ALL His children to share in that Love.
In Christ Jesus
Pastor Jake
Brilliant! I see many souls credited to you for your obedience to the call.
Thank you for this insight and your courage.
Blessings,
Andrea
hmm…very interesting thought. but may i kindly say i see error in it? to begin, i feel that i understand where you are coming from, but i do not agree that this type of thinking is either accurate or Biblical.
the moment someone confess Jesus, and begins to follow him, they are forgiven of their sins. we can see this for example in Colossians 2:13 “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses” all of our sins are forgiven at this point and as you very validly showed, we become “a new creation” in Christ Jesus. this fact is undeniable. but what happens here is a heart change, not a nature change. we have new desires, new joys found in doing God’s will…things that we would’ve never enjoyed before knowing Christ and his transforming grace. unfortunately, our nature is still the same because we are still sinners. YES, we are forgiven completely, but there is still the propensity to sin that comes from being a sinner. if this were not true we would not sin. even you yourself admitted that you still sin, and as do i. but now that we are in Christ, our identity changes. we are sinners saved by grace, not simply sinners. even paul understood this in Romans 7 as he went on about how much he dreaded his sinful nature, only to conclude that Christ was his only hope. if we were no longer sinners, we would no longer need Christ. YES, there will be a day, one that i long for at that, on which we will be without sin, but not till we appear with Christ like in Colossians 3…until that point, we are to put to death whatever belongs to the sinful nature through the power of the cross.
Saying that we are sinners does not diminish the power of the cross, it enhances it. the moment i step away from realizing i am a sinner in need of forgiveness is the same moment that i nullify what Jesus did on the cross. on the contrary though, if i humbly admit my sin and confess it, he is faithful and just to forgive all my sins. and that is something that is ongoing because as 2 Corinthians 3:18-19 illustrates, we are being transformed into the image of him (thanks be to God!)
looking at the verse in I John 1:10 “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” one can actually see in the original text that the tense is present tense, which is also in congruence with the rest of the verse’s tense.
i want to thank you for prayerfully considering this and am thankful to my Lord Jesus Christ that he has saved this sinner by his grace undeserved.
jeremy denief
Hi Jeremy,
Thanks for your comments and they are well received. This particuliar post has created more traffic THAN any other of the 90+ post on this site.
The subject has forced many to re-look at themselves and how they see themselves.
For at least 2 years now, part of the teachings that I do is to help people come to know, “Who they are and WHOSE they are”. Many in The Body have a type of ID Crisis, that the enemy has perputrated.
We are told that we are to “encourage and edify the saints”, yet many aren’t being encouraged, but rather “Beat Up and Kicked Down”.
The REAL HEART of the message behind this post was to encourage and edify people. Some have been able to do just that.Some choose to stay stuck where they are and ID themselves NOT as a “New Creature”, “Born Again”, but as an “old sinner” who will never amount to anything. THAT, Jeremy, is the lie that satan has pushed on YHWH’s Children. Yahushua, Christ Jesus, has MADE us Free and THEREFORE, we are no LONGER bound by the law of sin, BUT are now only bond servants, as PAul put it, To HIM alone.
I choose to believe myself FREE, afterall, THAT is what HE said in His Holy Word.
Love in Yahushua,Christ
Jake
JESUS is our example of a MAN who NEVER sinned. Everyone is responsible to walk in the light that they have; violation to that light is sin against GOD.
I encourage all to follow this link and listen to these free(no excuse for not knowing) teachings about sin and temptation. The truth about sin will make you free from sin. I pray that all who seek the TRUTH will be enlightened to receive and believe.
http://archiveserver.morelifenow.org//archives.php?archive_index=TheTruthAboutTemptation.txt&filetype=vod&seriestitle=0903%20-%20The%20Truth%20About%20Temptation
Love in our Lord Jesus Christ
Kevin